Chicago Blackhawks Options

[aek66]

Calgary didn't have enough elite-level talent. You look at Cup winners and they always had that one guy who stands out as an elite performer. The Oilers had Gretzky/Messier and then just Messier. The Pens had Lemieux/Jagr. The Habs had Roy. The Devils had Brodeur. The Wings had Yzerman/Fedorov.

Who did Calgary have? MacInnis? Nieuwendyk? Fleury? Joey Mullen? These guys were all second-bananas. They weren't the transcendent talents that could carry a team all the way to the Cup or take them on their backs in a hard series. Add to that the fact that Vernon was so inconsistent and you had a recipe for many a playoff failure.

Chicago was the same way and mainly because Chicago had focused all their scoring on three-four guys (Savard, Amonte, Roenick, Larmer among others) and also because Belfour really was shit in the playoffs until the mid-90s where against the Wings he was phenomenal.

It's a real treat believe me. Watching Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Watching Hossa who reminds me of a young Fedorov. Lidstrom on the back end. Franzen's ascendancy. It's an incredible time in our team's history.

- are you kidding me? lanny mcdonald (500 goals, hall of fame), joey mullen (500+ goals, hall of fame), doug gilmour (450 goals, almost 1,000 assists/ shoo-in for hall of fame), joe nieuwendyk (over 500 goals/ shoo-in for hall of fame), theo fleury (450+ goals), gary roberts (425+ career goals), joel otto (almost 200 career goals, one of the best defensive forwards for over a decade).

this isn't even the flames defense. those guys were all forwards. the best talent in the campbell conference.

these guys lost a cup finals in 86' and WON a cup in 89'. they had to be good, no?

this is why i wonder if one can point the finger at vernon or crisp/risebrough?

- the blackhawks were nowhere near the flames talent. the blackhawks had a super blue-line in the early-mid 1990's, but the offensive talent was zero. savard and larmer didn't scare anybody while in their mid/late 30's.

- and yes...the word envy comes to mind as you watch great hockey night in and night out.

[AEK Chicago]

- the hawks were pathetic in the late 80's. the highlight would be a behn wilson or bob mcgill fight...hehe. keenan came and the hawks barely squeaked into the playoffs on troy murray's o.t. goal in the last game of the season (i was there) against the leafs. the hawks then rode a magical 3 weeks of alain chevier in goal until (guess who?) the flames pounded the hawks in the conference finals and killed cinderella. i remember, doug wilson got injured, the hawks tried to disguise the injury...and there went the power play and any hope.

i do agree with you that losing to the penguins was very disappointing - belfour had a poor series. i liked keenan, the hawks skated their asses off every game. the thing was, the hawks ALWAYS outshot the opponent - but were talking about grinders like jocelyn lemieux and greg gilbert taking shots. the skill level dropped off dramatically after 2 lines.

the hawks needed 2 more legitimate snipers and wirtz & pulford went out and got a 35 year old michel goulet from quebec. bravo tous, the hawks needed goulet in 1982, not 1990...you are 100% correct on the hasek assessment. what in the name of GOD, made the hawks trade him?

- during the 1970's, i was back and forth between here and the other side. i do vaguely remember early 1970's canadians - more so mid and late 1970's canadians: but i was hardly at an age to appreciate and understand.

the best blueline i ever saw were the defensemen on the flames during the era i mentioned. superb quality and depth. once again - macinnis, suter, macoun, mccrimmon, nattress and murzyn.

- you may be right about as to why the flames frequently tanked in the play-offs...but, were talking a few hall of fame players. this is why i 'wondered' or asked out loud: was it vernon's fault or the coaches?

I have to disagree here. The '91 Hawks had the best team in the league and won the presidents cup. And then proceeded to get embarassed in the first round of the playoffs against the North Stars.

Savard, Larmer, Secord, Troy Murray, Steve Thomas, Dirk Graham, Adam Creighton, Jocelyn Lemieux, Greg Gilbert, Dave Manson, Doug Wilson, Mike Peluso, Stu Grimson, Gary Nylund, etc............

Maybe none of these guys were all world, but it was a VERY solid, and DEEP, team.

btw, I was IN the Stadium the night Troy Murray scored against the Maple Leafs, and I thought the entire damn building was going to collapse. I have NEVER heard a louder, more raucous crowd than that one after #19 lit the lamp. I still get goosebumps thinking about it.

[aek66]

i understand...that was the dirk graham captained team when graham ran over the north stars' goalie - beaupre, i think - and everything went downhill from there.

i said late 80's. check the hawks' record in the late 80's. bob murdoch was the coach. the record was pathetic...which matched the overall team talent. like i said - behn wilson, bob mcgill, dave manson...nyland and cochrane like you mentioned. the only players worth watching...hawks had a goon squad. hahaha - those guys took on gallant-probert and kocur on the wings, the nut-case kordic on the leafs and basil mcrae, zemlak and churla from the north stars. man...memories.

i think they had lost 8 straight 1st round playoff matches, i can't exactly remember this stuff from 20 years ago - but they were bad. anyways, the hawks were under .500 and had to make a late run to make the playoffs during keenan's first year.

that toronto game was memorable. absolute pandemonium. i was in the 2nd balcony - west end. looking right down on murray stealing the puck and scoring (was it wreggett in goal? haha, remember him?) and putting us in the playoffs - . chevrier got hot - players like duane sutter (roleplayer - in otherwords, zero talent) or wayne 'elvis' pressley (another goof) scoring overtime goals against the red wings in the playoffs...what a playoff run that was.

[AEK Chicago]

Then I must have been right below you in the box seats behind the net and to the left of the Leafs goalie.

I honestly thought the entire building was going to collapse .......... or at least the two balconies.

I remember I kept looking up towards the balconies to make sure that they weren't coming down ... that's how loud it was ... you could feel the floor shaking and I could swear the damn building was moving.

I remember the Murdoch teams, but Keenan turned it around ... asap.

And yes the Hawks were a goon squad Peluso, Grimson, Cochrane, Behn Wilson, Mc Gill, Nylund, Manson, ....

I remember one great Hawks-Wings brawl where Secord, Ed Olczyk, and Gary Nylund took on Bob Probert, Joe Kocur, and Gerard Gallant at the tail end of the game. I think the Hawks only won one of those fights, but they made a statement.

I also remember they brought in Cochrane to add some muscle and take on Probert ... and he proceeded to get dusted. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Grimson really was the only guy that could fight Probert straight up. And Behn Wilson in his prime.

Dave Manson would have been a PREMIER heavyweight had he concentrated solely on goonery. That kid was a monster. I remember him calling out Scott Stevens of the Blues to center ice at the end of a playoff game and then kicking the living bejeezus out of him.

Not sure I ever saw "Charley" lose a fight.

Peluso was useless. He'd land two or three punches and then wind up on his ass, without anyone ever touching him. Worse balance on skates I have ever seen from an NHL goon.

[aek66]

good post and more great memories. as far as recent games -

1 point out of the last 6 available with only 4 goals scored. toews can probably be classified as 'officially' in a sophomore slump - despite scoring 2 out of those 4 goals in san jose. my worst fear is that toews is the 2nd coming of troy murray and not the 2nd coming of jeremy roenick.

some of the grinders on the hawks are severely challenged offensively and i'm not sure what the delay is in not calling up #1 pick kyle beach. it may be a salary cap issue - as the hawks had to put johnson on long term inury list to be able to call up a back-up for huet.

hockey night in canada reported that dale tallon met with mats sundin in los angeles over the weekend. sundin at what, 37-38...and the hawks with no room to move in the salary cap - a mega longshot for sure....though the hawks are in mighty need for a quality center.

[g00nis]

- are you kidding me? lanny mcdonald (500 goals, hall of fame), joey mullen (500+ goals, hall of fame), doug gilmour (450 goals, almost 1,000 assists/ shoo-in for hall of fame), joe nieuwendyk (over 500 goals/ shoo-in for hall of fame), theo fleury (450+ goals), gary roberts (425+ career goals), joel otto (almost 200 career goals, one of the best defensive forwards for over a decade).

I'm not talking about all-star caliber. I'm speaking of simply transcendant talent. Players who are generational. Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, Jagr, Roy, Brodeur, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Fedorov, Bure. These players could win a series by themselves. They could take you to the finals by themselves. Lanny McDonald was older. Mullen was the closest of all of those guys to being a superstar. Fleury was a rookie. Nieuwendyk has never been considered a superstar. Gilmour grew into a star later in his career. Roberts? Yeah right.

If the Flames had a better goalie (don't get me wrong at the time there weren't many better than Vernon) they could have won more. You have to realize that was a unique time in NHL history. A lot of superstars in the league. You look at a decade later and you had more diluted talent for various reasons.

this isn't even the flames defense. those guys were all forwards. the best talent in the campbell conference.

They couldn't touch the Oilers offensively.

these guys lost a cup finals in 86' and WON a cup in 89'. they had to be good, no?

They were good they just weren't dynastic.

[g00nis]

I have to disagree here. The '91 Hawks had the best team in the league and won the presidents cup. And then proceeded to get embarassed in the first round of the playoffs against the North Stars.

Savard, Larmer, Secord, Troy Murray, Steve Thomas, Dirk Graham, Adam Creighton, Jocelyn Lemieux, Greg Gilbert, Dave Manson, Doug Wilson, Mike Peluso, Stu Grimson, Gary Nylund, etc............

Maybe none of these guys were all world, but it was a VERY solid, and DEEP, team.

btw, I was IN the Stadium the night Troy Murray scored against the Maple Leafs, and I thought the entire damn building was going to collapse. I have NEVER heard a louder, more raucous crowd than that one after #19 lit the lamp. I still get goosebumps thinking about it.

Then the next year you guys had the Pens.

Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Kevin Stevens, Joe Mullen, Mark Recchi/Rick Tocchet, Ron Francis

You'll be hard pressed to find a better top-six post expansion.

[aek66]

ok - i can buy the vernon theory...despite the fact he won 2 cups. i still have a problem understanding why calgary didn't win more cups. obviously, to feel this way - i still believe they had the best talent in the league.

- i mentioned the years 1987-1992. i felt the flames had the best talent in the campbell conference. gretzky remained on the oilers for only 1 of those years. when gretzky left - the oilers were down to messier, kurri, tikkanen, an aging glenn anderson...and who else? craig simpson??. that lot doesn't stack up to the flames offensive talent - when mcdonald retired, makarov came to the flames. if anything, the flames got even better, offensively.

i can't argue about messier, kurri...lowe...coffey..fuhr and ranford. absolute winners. i remember crisp got sacked after 91', i think - and he is still the major scapegoat.

- i thought gary roberts was a very good player. during his prime - he averaged just about a point a game along with 200+ penalty minutes a season. over 425 career goals, along with 93 points in 130 career playoff games.

i suppose it's tough luck for them. like you said, a good team but not a dynasty - though the ingredients were there.

[AEK Chicago]

Then the next year you guys had the Pens.

Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Kevin Stevens, Joe Mullen, Mark Recchi/Rick Tocchet, Ron Francis

You'll be hard pressed to find a better top-six post expansion.

The Hawks had no business being on the same ice as the Pens.

Nonetheless, in '91 they were the best team in hockey.

p.s. I might be wrong about Savard on the '91 team. I think we had already traded him for Chelios. Its a LONG time ago and some of those years are a blur.

ok - i can buy the vernon theory...despite the fact he won 2 cups. i still have a problem understanding why calgary didn't win more cups. obviously, to feel this way - i still believe they had the best talent in the league.

- i mentioned the years 1987-1992. i felt the flames had the best talent in the campbell conference. gretzky remained on the oilers for only 1 of those years. when gretzky left - the oilers were down to messier, kurri, tikkanen, an aging glenn anderson...and who else? craig simpson??. that lot doesn't stack up to the flames offensive talent - when mcdonald retired, makarov came to the flames. if anything, the flames got even better, offensively.

i can't argue about messier, kurri...lowe...coffey..fuhr and ranford. absolute winners. i remember crisp got sacked after 91', i think - and he is still the major scapegoat.

- i thought gary roberts was a very good player. during his prime - he averaged just about a point a game along with 200+ penalty minutes a season. over 425 career goals, along with 93 points in 130 career playoff games.

i suppose it's tough luck for them. like you said, a good team but not a dynasty - though the ingredients were there.

Believe it or not, I tend to agree with goonis.

I understand what he's trying to say.

Guys like Gretzky, or Lemieux, or Fedorov, or Forsberg are MEGA STARS.

They are guys that can change games and series in an instant, ALL BY THEMSELVES.

And sometimes, in the playoffs when you're playing teams of equal caliber, it takes that one guy to make a difference.

I'm not sure the Flames had ANY guys in that category. Neither did the Hawks.

The two guys that were probably the closest were Gilmour and Nierwenduyk, and I still don't think either of them were series changers. Fleury had the talent, but was also wacko.

[aek66]

i can see that point...in comparing individual flames to players such a gretzky, messier or roy.

what leaves that argument a bit open-ended is the fact that the flames did indeed win a cup in 89', triumphing over those individual players and their respective clubs - and other players from that flames club won cups with other clubs.

we just can't dismiss them as not being skilled enough or not having that killer instinct. these guys were champions.

i guess it's my problem because i can't identify 1 or 2 exact reasons why that flames club basically flopped in the playoffs - while (in my opinion) that club had the deepest talent in the conference for some 5 years.

was it vernon? he won 2 cups. was it crisp? he won the 1989 cup. it's a circle.

[g00nis]

If I can make an analogy to Basketball here think of the Flames as a past-version of the current Detroit Pistons. A team full of All-Star talent but no one on the level of a Kobe or a Lebron. They won one title because everything came together at the right time, but because they lacked that one guy they could never string titles together like many foresaw. The Flames were the NHL's past equivalent in my eyes.

A lot of talent but no one who had the pedigree to match the afforementioned teams. I can agree with the statement that the Flames of '89-'91 were amongst the most talented teams. I thought you were including the '86 Flames which is why I brought up the Oilers.

'91 and after though it was the Pens which were easily the most talented team in the league. Legendary top-six + Bryan Trottier, Paul Coffey and Larry Murphy in defense, goaltending was solid with Barrasso, and Bowman as the HC.


AC '91 was the year Savard was traded for Chelios yes.

[AEK_DCV]

Blackhawks lost 5-4 to the Red Wings in a shootout. This Blackhawks team is very exciting to watch and I can't wait to see how much better they will get, especially with the amount of young Canadians on this team. Here a the players who have been part of Canadian World Junior Team since 2004:
- Cam Barker (D)(2005,2006)(2 Golds)
- Dave Bolland ©(2006)(Gold)
- Colin Fraser ©(2005)(Gold)
- Andrew Ladd (LW)(2005)(Gold)
- Brent Seabrook (D)(2004,2005)(Silver,Gold)
- Jonathan Toews ©(2006,2007)(2 Golds)

And don't forget to add other young talented players like Kane, Versteeg, Keith, Brouwer, Byfulgien. This team is going to be very very good in the future if they can keep it together.

[aek66]

an exciting game to watch - a preview (hopefully) of the january 1 outdoor game.

2 very dodgy goals in the first 5 minutes by the wings. huet certainly has his moments. just as it appeared that toews was in a deep sophomore slumber, toews has stepped it up the last week or so. i saw don cherry (the alefantos of canada) creaming his pants over toews' 2 goals.

- i wasn't surprised to hear the chit-chat between periods on hockey night in canada in regards to dale tallon's shaky position as gm of the blackhawks. they claimed that ex cub president mcdonough wants tallon out. could be - but i think it's scotty bowman that wants tallon out...and i think scotty bowman has the ear of mcdonough and wirtz. the savard sacking and the goaltending dilemma show where the current power base is on the blackhawks and further weaken tallon's position.

the round table talk hinted that tallon is desperate to land sundin - it can't happen without the blackhawks dumping khabibulin's salary....if tallon's future is riding on huet, then tallon may be on the verge of a sacking.

the wings are oozing offensive talent - it looks like detroit and san jose are already eye-balling each other for a conference final showdown in may. if the blackhawks tinker a bit, i think they can make some noise - but a 7 game series against a top club would expose some of their weaknesses.

[AEK Chicago]

Very ture about Tallon, aek66.

Although he has to take much of the credit for bringing in some of this young talent, Scotty Bowman IS Scotty Bowman. And I suspect what Scotty Bowman wants, Scotty Bowman gets. Exhibit #1-Joel Quenville.

Ultimately, Huet may prove Tallon's undoing. I don't know what Tallon was thinking here, outside of maybe believing he could get rid of Khabibulin's contract a lot easier than it has turned out to be. And at this point, I'm not so sure Huet is even better than Khabi.

[aek66]

yes...poor tallon. huet does not have the same pedigree as khabibulin and khabibulin has made tallon look bad at every twist and turn.

khabibulin played at a poor level after his big money signing, making tallon look bad...and now, after tallon gave big money to huet, khabibulin (in a contract year) is playing phenomenal in goal....while huet has looked shaky in spot starts.

no win here for tallon...tallon couldn't time his leap correctly unto the goaltender merry-go-round...

mcdonough has stated he knows nothing about building a hockey roster. wirtz is anxious to un-do the evils of his father. i think they each look to scotty bowman for guidance...and i think tallon's days are numbered.

you're right - i will give tallon kudos for recent drafts...quality young players. it's refreshing to see quality on the blackhawk roster after years of ridiculous drafts. pulford smoking a few cigs with the blackhawks' 2 total scouts (i'm surprised that wirtz had scouts on payroll) and throwing darts at a dart board.

the hockey club was run so poorly...a tragedy.

[g00nis]

Tallon screwed up because he didn't realize that Khabibulin's best years have always been when his contract is up. Whenever he gets his money he plays average-poor. Remember his years in Phoenix prior to his resurrection in 2004 with Tampa.

Bowman is likely pulling the strings. I knew it was fishy when Savard was fired. Scotty could become the GM through his son's appointment if Tallon is fired.


I've never been really impressed by Huet. He is quite average and every once in a while has a real stinker. I don't think hes the type of goalie that can steal games... something I believe the Canadiens and Capitals recognized when they let him go for nothing.

IMO the Hawks should have kept Khabibulin and gone for someone else the next year.

[aek66]

good post and i agree with aekchicago's and your overall opinion of huet.

hockey is an awesome sport - and we may be proven wrong by a so-so goaltender getting white-hot in april and may...we've seen it before and we'll see it again. it could happen with huet, but it would be nonsensical to base any hope on huet with the 'getting white-hot in the playoffs', theory.

i think that khabibulin's age, his previous poor years with the blackhawks and huet's contract make khabibulin's time in chicago untenable - so he will go. can tallon make a deal and dump khabibulin's huge salary so the hawks can tinker with their roster?

[g00nis]

Personally I would like to see Huet become more consistent and have more success. It would mean the Hawks would be that much better of a team and that much more dangerous.

Huet could catch fire like Ward did for the Hurricanes and get the Hawks a good run. I think a Hawks-Wings conference final would be way way way more compelling than Sharks-Wings.

The original 6/old norris rivalry. Young emerging stars against the older more established vets. Huet v. Osgood - two shaky goalies. Then of course Bowman in the Hawks front office who was inimately involved with the Red Wings the past couple of years as a consultant.

[spaz7]

they were on fire last nite
7-1 vs phoenix

[aek66]

watched the 2-0 win over the senators - i was only impressed with the usual stellar play from keith and seabrook - and great to see, from huet.

2 points that huet captured himself. easily his best game as a blackhawk - looked real good today.

disappointed to see quenville start playing games by shuffling the lines and it showed - though i was relieved to see cam barker taken off one point on the power play. when johnson and wisniewski return, i think barker will be sent down to the minors, while they'll need to make a decision on brent sobel.

speaking of keith - i watched a bit of the red wings and flames. phaneuf was a -1 against the wings and is now a season -7 on a club that was in 1st place (coming into tonight) with a -3 total goal differential.

great shot, crunching hits.....ummmm, is he any good defensively?

duncan keith is a +9 on a club that has allowed only 73 goals (only 3 clubs have allowed less). yzerman and the canadian olympic team would be making a mistake by not taking keith and not considering seabrook.