Stadium, ΠΑΣ Γιάννινα Options

[Karagounis fever]

What Xenophon said was spot on.

Red Sherrif, it is exactly that you tailor different stadiums for club x and club y. They have different needs, different fan bases, different pulls. Believe me, Tripoli would never ever fill a stadium of 13 000. Unless it was possibly for the Ethniki, or - and this is a long shot- they allowed 10 000 Olympiakos fans to come for the day.

Having a bunch of Olympiakoi doesn't create a great Tripoli spirit either. Kavala, a much more popular club, tries this. Yet even they only managed about 7000 (from recall) against Oly, and the vast majority were oly fans.

Xenophon hit the nail on the head with boutique stadia. That is the best path for small places lime Tripoli. There is nothing worse than constantly watching your side play in an empty stadium. Filling it once a year, and that's a big 'if' makes the rest of the season pretty souless.

[RED SHERIFF]

YES..

but surely 13k should be the bare min..even for a "boutique" stadium...no one is going to build a miniture karaiskaki that holds 4500???

otherwise its not worth the effort..

[Karagounis fever]

YES..

but surely 13k should be the bare min..even for a "boutique" stadium...no one is going to build a miniture karaiskaki that holds 4500???

otherwise its not worth the effort..

it is in terms of quality ground and facilities. Their currnt pitch holds about 5000 updating it to 8-10 000 may he helpful if it's a better stadium, or as you say, it may be a waste of money for a small side.

There is an element of megaleia here in terms of owners etc being the big man in a small town. I've seen them play and the stadium is usually half full. Official averages are about 1800 per game, and from what I've seen, these stats are close. The biggest crowd this year I think was 3000. Even against us (PAO) the stadium was fairly full, but nowhere near capacity.

This is the reality with small sides in regional Greece.

Even recently, their president had finally realized this and is in talks with far off Kalamata, proposing a merger!

[xenofon]

Of course. 13-15k would be a minimum otherwise it will have 5 rows of seats all the way round....or would make for a good basketball stadium

Machlas used to play in Holland for Vitesse, they built a new stadium that held 17k. I though this was a bit ridiculous back in the day, but it was state of the art, had a CLOSING roof, was tailored for the team and the its supporter base, demographics, etc (Arnhem is a small town).

This is the model the greek sides need, especially teams like Levadiakos, PAS, Veria, even Panionios whose grounds are atrocious and any foreigners watching would laugh that they are/were 1st division clubs. Greece needs this sort of development otherwise we'll continue to be seen as almost a 3rd world football nation. The start has been made with Karaiskaki (the other stadia built for the olympics are not true football grounds), we now need to build on that.

[Karagounis fever]

Holland has a bigger population and lots of towns/ small cities so there is far more regional pull. We all know most Greeks live in Athens and Thessaloniki. The other club with potential is Panachaiki, but unfortunately they are languishing in a lower division

I think clubs with 3000 attendace or more eg Larissa and Yiannina are the ones that we need to concentrate on. Funnily enough Larissa is building an appropriate sized new stadium and PAS may do the same (hopefully they stay up).

Iraklis may build in the future and they are Greece's 6th most supported club. Problem is Kafentzoglio is becoming run down, but their biggest problem is that the stadium is TOO BIG for their fan base, which leaves a dull atmosphere.

You want a Toumba or Karaiskaki (could have been bigger but their were problems) or even a Charilaou type vibe.

Smaller clubs need to cater for atmosphere too. Watch a Cretan side in Pankratio - it's eerily empty. Great large stadium with nobody in it. Personally I think we need good quality functional stadiums relative to potential support base (or even slightly larger). We are not the US we don't have the population, we have 5 very good sides and a about half a dozen sides which can grow. If, like Xenophon states, we improve these sides with some real potential ( not just small sides with rich egotistical owners) things should further develop.

People need to understand the Greek world, demographics, attendance etc We are doing very well all up. High quality bala and better attendance than places like Romania and most of E. Europe. Small sides in Portugal have similar problems (slightly better there) their spread of population is more similar to ours when compared to that of Holland's.

This post has been edited by Karagounis fever: Mar 15 2010, 06:27 PM

[ElGreco23]

The news of PAS Giannina thinking about building a new stadium is nothing but positive. The team has a fantastic fanbase and could become the next Kavala ( next big thing in Greek football). I certainly think that Giannina and Iraklis deserve their own stadiums instead of playing in a cavernous one (Ira) and a total shit-hole (PAS). My personal opinion is that despite the economic collapse in Greece, Greek football is on the rise.

[Karagounis fever]

All true.

But PAS have a much bigger fan base then Kavala - who get attendances up from allowing more visiting fans.

Every PAS game has fans. The difference is that Psomiades has more money and can buy players while PAS struggle. Really hope they stay up.

As for the stadium, I think as state of the art stadio with a capacity of 15 000 would be fantastic. I don't think it's finalized yet - it will be a struggle for them to stay up but if their recent form continues they have a good chance.

Proud of Larissa too.

[xenofon]

I have a real interest in football stadia, especially Greek. The www.stadia.gr site is one of my favourite websites, most of you would know it.

Apart from Karaiskaki and a few others built recently for the olympics, greek stadia haven't progressed much since the early 80's (that's how far back I go). Kavala and Yiannina for example, apart from some plastic seats and improvements to the change rooms, media boxes, some painting/rendering, etc, are EXACTLY as they were in 1981.

Believe it or not, back in 1981 I can remember reading a feature in a greek soccer mag about Alcazar and how it was the best football stadium in Greece. That shows you what the standard was like back then, and the playing surfaces were atrocious. In the past few years things are starting to change, Karaiskaki, Votanikos, Larisa, etc, we are on the right track....as long as the country doesn't disintegrate with this financial mess.

[Manolara_AEKara]

Marketing of Greek soccer is shite and non-existent.

Hence the low attendances.

Average attendance by league as of December 2009

41,914 - German Bundesliga
35,599 - English Premier League
29,124 - Spain La Liga
25,379 - Mexico Primera Division
23,180 - Italy Serie A
21,050 - France Ligue 1
20,886 - Argentina Primera Division
20,195 - England Football League Championship
19,827 - Dutch Eredivisie
19,278 - Japan J-League
17,601 - Brazil Campeonato Serie A
16,482 - China Super League
16,460 - Major League Soccer
15,550 - Germany 2.Bundesliga
14,915 - Scottish Premier League
14,058 - Turkey Super Lig
13,334 - Russian Premier League
13,242 - South Korea K-League
12,966 - Australia A-League
11.369 - Belgium Jupiler League
10,917 - Switzerland Super League
10,438 - Norway Premier League
10,390 - Portuguese Liga
10,326 - Vietnam V-League
10,258 - Sweden Allsvenskan
9,552 - Colombia Copa Mustang
9,338 - Austrian Bundesliga
9,216 - Iran Premier League
9,052 - Ukrainian Premier League
8,814 - Denmark Superliga
8,599 - France Ligue 2
8,112 - Spain Segunda Division
8,324 - England Football League One
7,622 - Greece Super League
7,526 - South Africa Premier Soccer League
7,336 - Uzbekistan League
7,329 - Poland Orange Ekstraklasa
7,219 - Brazil Campeonato Serie B

Link

But hey, prize money from Euro2004 and olympiakos holding a monopoly over the league doesn't matter. Either do the journo's that keep printing propaganda that desensitizes fans and keeps them away from stadiums.

[Karagounis fever]

The big 5 all have fine attendances. PAO about 23000, Oly similar, and Aris and PAOK generally play in full stadiums. AEK has dropped but it's still fair. We need to work on the next tier down too- teams like Larissa, Panionios, Iraklis etc.

If you included European attendances they would be much higher too eg. The 55000 PAO had vs Standard was a 'small' crowd due the protests.

The really small sides like Xanthi, Levadiakos, and Tripoli etc bring a strong attendance average down significantly as they only average 1 - 2.5 thous each. These are teams from areas of relatively small populations.I am actually for cutting the league by two teams but I don't think many others are.

As for marketing, it's hard for small towns eg Tripoli has only 30000 people, Xanthi, Kavala etc these are not huge cities. How many people do you expect to go to the match? One third of the population?

Attendances are on the increase again and some teams like Iraklis and PAOK often appear to have inaccurate figures so they can cash in. Toumba is rarely not full yet officially they av about 16000. Which is clearly not the case.

But if we can get crowd improvement at teams like Larissa and even AEK we will improve further.

And believe me there is nothing like seeing a CL game or a derby in Greece. The atmosphere is electrifying.

Basically the big 5 (besides Aek at present) have great atmosphere and the small sides and poor data collecting make it look worse than what it is. Many of the leagues above us don't have any teams near oly's and Pao's attendance. Look at the top sides in Austria, Switserland , the Ukraine and you'll find that they are nowhere close to our big sides. So that data is a little misleading.

The big 5 all have fine attendances. PAO about 23000, Oly similar, and Aris and PAOK generally play in full stadiums. AEK has dropped but it's still fair. We need to work on the next tier down too- teams like Larissa, Panionios, Iraklis etc.

If you included European attendances they would be much higher too eg. The 55000 PAO had vs Standard was a 'small' crowd due the protests.

The really small sides like Xanthi, Levadiakos, and Tripoli etc bring a strong attendance average down significantly as they only average 1 - 2.5 thous each. These are teams from areas of relatively small populations.I am actually for cutting the league by two teams but I don't think many others are.

As for marketing, it's hard for small towns eg Tripoli has only 30000 people, Xanthi, Kavala etc these are not huge cities. How many people do you expect to go to the match? One third of the population?

Attendances are on the increase again and some teams like Iraklis and PAOK often appear to have inaccurate figures so they can cash in. Toumba is rarely not full yet officially they av about 16000. Which is clearly not the case.

But if we can get crowd improvement at teams like Larissa and even AEK we will improve further.

And believe me there is nothing like seeing a CL game or a derby in Greece. The atmosphere is electrifying.

Basically the big 5 (besides Aek at present) have great atmosphere and the small sides and poor data collecting make it look worse than what it is. Many of the leagues above us don't have any teams near oly's and Pao's attendance. Look at the top sides in Austria, Switserland , the Ukraine and you'll find that they are nowhere close to our big sides. So that data is a little misleading.

This post has been edited by Karagounis fever: Mar 16 2010, 02:56 AM

[Karagounis fever]

This may give you a better idea. Small sides like Levadiakos and Tripoli will never have large crowds due the populations. Remember some teams, especially Iraklis and PAOK and to a lesser extent have highly suspicious figures. Compare our bigger sides to other the Swiss, Austrian
, Ukranian etc and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Aek supporters are the big drop offs.

As for the league, cull two sides and the average in my opinion would go up (but that's another issue).

It's also a pity that Greece's most popular side, Oly, doesn't have a bigger stadium as it prevents their attendance averages from being higher

http://www.european-football-statistics.co...rent/avegre.htm

try the site above

[xenofon]

Interesting figures.

True, the smaller Greek sides are regional and can't attract big crowds. But some athenian teams e.g. panionios, kalliethea in the past, thrasyvoulos, etc, had very small averages as well.

The A-League figures are also misleading. Take Victory out and the average will drop from 12 to 5 or 6000. The other leagues have a more even distribution amongst teams, the real surprise is the bundesliga.

[Karagounis fever]

True, there are too many sides in the Athenian metropolis. I'm fine with Aek, oly, pao and Panionios (the later for historical purposes) but as for the rest...

Glad the 2 major teams from Saloniki have been revived. Next step is Iraklis.

I think pas (if they stay up) and Larissa have potential too. And I'd love to see OFI back and eventually Panachaiki as these teams have a solid fan base.
Eg OFI is averaging about 6000 in Beta!

Yes Xenophon, Germany is the most highly supported league! Large, packed stadiums all over the place. Followed by the PL

[Manolara_AEKara]

I'm surprised you think the Bundesliga is a big surprise. Like 80% of their stadiums are full consistently and they're big.

Glasgow's population is only 600,000 yet Celtic's average attendance was 57,000 and Ranger's is 49,000. That is like 1 in 6 people in the city going to their games. Athens on the other hand has a population of 750,000 but the top 3 can only make like about 50,000.

As mentioned the teams have no trouble filling a stadium during CL or major derby, problem is shitty marketing.

[RED SHERIFF]

ITS NOT MARKETING...ITS THE GREEK ATTITUDE...

also look at the fact that 90% of the country only follows 5 teams..

- also the official attendances are false...there is no way that aris who officially have a yearly average of between 8-11k can be true...the official capacity of aris is 24ishk... there is no way that on average aris home matches are a third to half full over the last 3 years...- totally false....

once you discover corrupt data there is no point analysing it or placing it on any list as it is false????

also the greek mentality towards soccer is wrong...we got 5000 and 7000 to frindlies at karaiskaki v.denmark anf italy..that shows greek soccer fans are not football savvy..... at the time i heard a million excuses on this site as to the low crowds on those days all were rubbish.....

greece - v,denmark and greece v. italy in athens getting lower numbers than that quality opposition would have got in albania or even malta.... - no excuse....primitive football attitude...

[xenofon]

That attendance against Italy was a disgrace - the world champions. If they had played in Melbourne vs the socceroos the mcg would be full with 100,000 people.

I know we don't often get to see teams like that in Aust, but even the NZ match before the WC will probably be a sellout.

[Kalavrios]

I'm surprised you think the Bundesliga is a big surprise. Like 80% of their stadiums are full consistently and they're big.

Glasgow's population is only 600,000 yet Celtic's average attendance was 57,000 and Ranger's is 49,000. That is like 1 in 6 people in the city going to their games. Athens on the other hand has a population of 750,000 but the top 3 can only make like about 50,000.

As mentioned the teams have no trouble filling a stadium during CL or major derby, problem is shitty marketing.

Glasgows Metro population is around 2.3 million which is more realistic when you think of Celtic/Rangers drawing fans. However that also makes the Athens sides crowds look pale in comparison considering Athens is a city of 4/5 million people.



This post has been edited by Kalavrios: Mar 16 2010, 05:55 AM

[RED SHERIFF]

That attendance against Italy was a disgrace - the world champions. If they had played in Melbourne vs the socceroos the mcg would be full with 100,000 people.

I know we don't often get to see teams like that in Aust, but even the NZ match before the WC will probably be a sellout.

dont compare the theatre goers in australia...most show up...and dont even know the rules and couldnt care less...

the "event" mentality here is almost as sickening as the apathetic attitude of the greeks...

[Karagounis fever]

This is funny because I just came back from Edinburgh where my gf had to present a paper. Edinburgh is aboUt half a mill but Glasgow swamps it. I'd say at least 1.9 to 2.3mill. Maybe your data didn't include the urban areas just outside the city centre because there is no way Glasgow is only 500 000 all up. The two teams have a monopoly on support there. Going back to historical allegiances of being a Catholic (Celtic ) or Protestant (Rangers). At least in Athens we have 3 big teams and a middle sized one in Panionios.

Outside of the duopoly the Scottish league is stagnant, their attendance is bloated due to the large stadiums of the two giants.

Like I said, if Karaiskaki had a bigger capacity eg 40 - 50 000 suddenly our statistics would look very different. On derby days it would be full and in a good season they would have a very high average.

As for crowds - we are getting better. I'd like us to have cameras at the games and properly crack down on violence. This is against Greek values who aliken it to the 'big brother' watching, so idiots get away with hooliganism. Αφού τα γήπεδα δεν έχουν τα δικαιώματα να βάζουν φωτογραφικές μηχανές. Υια μας που ζούνε στο εξωτερικό αυτός ο νόμος φαίνεται απίστευτο.

For me safety over fear of a perceived junta big brother approach.

But I am glad with recent marketing which also uses values eg there was a blood donor week promotion in the SL recently. Things are steadily improving. Καί va προσθέσω ότι είναι η νοοτροπία στην Ελλάδα να βλέπουν τους αγώνες στα σπίτια, συνήθως με τα σουβλάκια τους

But we are getting there ?

This is funny because I just came back from Edinburgh where my gf had to present a paper. Edinburgh is abot half a mill but Glasgow swamps it. I'd say at least 1.9 to 2 mill. Maybe your data didn't include the urban areas just outside the city centre because there is no way Glasgow is only 500 000 all up. The two teams have a monopoly on support there. Going back to historical allegiances of bring a Catholic (Celtic ) or Protestant (Rangers). At least in Athens we have 3 big teams and a middle sized one in Panionios.

Outside if the duopoly the Scottish league is stagnant, their attendance is bloated due to their large grounds.

Like I said, if Karaiskaki had s bigger capacity eg 40 - 50 000 suddenly our statistics would look very different. On derby days it would be full and in a good season they would have a very high average.

As for crowds - we are getting better. I'd like us to gave cameras at the games and properly crack down on violence. This I'd against Greek values however of the 'big brother' watching so idiots get away with it. Αφού τα γήπεδα δεν έχουν τα δικαιώματα να βάζουν φωτογραφικές μηχανές. Υια μας που ζούνε στο εξωτερικό αυτός ο νόμος φαίνεται απίστευτο.

For me safety over fear of a junta big brother approach.

But I am glad with recent marketing which also uses values eg there was a blood donor week promotion in the SL recently. Things sre steadily improving. Καίνε προσθέσω ότι είναι η νοοτροπία στην Ελλάδα να βλέπουν τους αγώνες στα σπίτια, συνήθως με τα σουβλάκια τους

But we are getting there ?

This post has been edited by Karagounis fever: Mar 16 2010, 08:28 AM

[Manolara_AEKara]

ITS NOT MARKETING...ITS THE GREEK ATTITUDE...

also look at the fact that 90% of the country only follows 5 teams..

- also the official attendances are false...there is no way that aris who officially have a yearly average of between 8-11k can be true...the official capacity of aris is 24ishk... there is no way that on average aris home matches are a third to half full over the last 3 years...- totally false....

once you discover corrupt data there is no point analysing it or placing it on any list as it is false????

also the greek mentality towards soccer is wrong...we got 5000 and 7000 to frindlies at karaiskaki v.denmark anf italy..that shows greek soccer fans are not football savvy..... at the time i heard a million excuses on this site as to the low crowds on those days all were rubbish.....

greece - v,denmark and greece v. italy in athens getting lower numbers than that quality opposition would have got in albania or even malta.... - no excuse....primitive football attitude...

Link to database of European attendances

If you go by this information you can see why the teams that challenge for the title had higher attendance whereas the other teams had less. As the years changed so did the attendances. The only thing teams are going by are trophies. Join Oly, they win trophies yearly, you will be a winner yearly. Aek peaked in 07/08 and it dropped off in 08/09, wunder why.

Even though Hertha Berlin sit last in the Bundesliga they still get 42,000 attendance on average this year. Previous year was 52,000. That's a drop of about 20%. From Aek's peak in 08 at 21,000 to 15,000 in 09 is a 29% drop.

With the papers constantly berating this sense of superiority over other teams the main reason why the average Greek fan goes to watch football games is not because of the football it's because of the potential of the team winning something. This will allow gloating and so on. That's why derby's are filled to the rim. That's why Pao's attendance has skyrocketed from past few seasons. That's why Oly's has slightly fallen.

All leagues are like this, but Greek League is coping it harder.