Greek Superleague Issues & Concerns, The State of the Greek Superleague Options

[Manolara_AEKara]

Cheers Thryleon.

not nit picking at all...

but your question deliberately put a "halo" around some "non osfp " fans and that we must consider their opinions more so than the "decent osfp fan"..

there are good people that support osfp and all clubs....because someone goes to church every week and help grannys cross the road and helps in a charity and does not support osfp....does not mean they are always right about all topics..

the greek soccer fan is a strange beast....much like "i must retire at 48 and live off a govt. pension"...or its the govts. fault that i lost on the share market in 1998..even though i have no idea about the share market or how it works?

Funnily enough Thryleon could give me a straight answer?

[RED SHERIFF]

thryleon told you exactly what i have been saying to you for 2 years...

I specifically answered your question about..."good decent people"....

maybe you prefer thryleon writing style.....he told you stop being paranoid and lets hope your club gets their shit together..for the good of the game...(sic.)

[Thryleon]

i am not talking about conspiracy theories i am talking about facts and things we need to do to improve the greek league.and what we need to do is improve the behaviour of people like marinakis and other paragondes and the media and the way the madia is being used.
im going to keep repeating myself because no one wants to comment on the issues that i have brought up,which have to do with behind the scenes malakies.
which president can you name me in the after match press conference has told an opposing player we f..ked you?is that proper behaviour and does it promote good will among opposing teams?
when vyntra won that penalty against aris what happened to the ref of that match and what did marinakis say afterwards,"eglima kata tis elladas corrupt league",your own president said the league was corrupt is that a conspiracy theory?
was it a coincidence the schedule was changed so levadiakos and paok didnt have to play pao coming off mid week games?who benefits from the schedule change certainly not pao.

why dont you tel us what happened in the aftermarth of the asteras 2-0 defeat,your keeper gave up 2 goals and cost you the match yet the ref copped a bashing in the media,theodoridis was brought out of mothballs and an orchestrated attack against the refs in general started ,making it nearlly impossible for future refs,who blew up that refs fourno?

when we were +5 all the conspiracy theories were coming from olympiakos,the refs were giving pao penalties ,leto was diving ,pilavios fixed the league for pao to win blah blah blah.
your team on the pitch might well have deserced to win the league but im talking about the pousties that go on behind the scenes,but no one wants to comment on the above incidents that happened,i must of being dreaming them ,everything is fine and dandy in the greek league.

No. You are talking about things that:
1. Cannot be proven.
2. Are taken completely out of context and skewed by the media (of which you are condemning the same people of using but non Olympiakos people dont do tha do they???t!!)
3. Factors outside, not only your clubs control, but the control of the average fan.


So my next question is, what do you want to have done about this? What can fix this scenario that you are so unhappy with?

Marinakis is not the first to be guilty of all your stuff. Hell Pateras did all of this only two years ago and it was fine then, you didnt hear us saying all this but here you are. On your high horse. Saying the same old stuff.

What makes me laugh: The argument is always the same regardless of the supporter depending on the colour they wear, and I guarantee you that 90% of fans are more concerned with the state of things and how it effects their clubs chances of winning the league than they are with actually rectifying things for the betterment of Greek football, and are more concerned with how unfair it is that Olympiakos just keeps winning.

This post has been edited by Thryleon: Mar 29 2012, 08:50 PM

[Thryleon]

I love it Asteras. The biggest issue in Greek football is how the presidents bang on about refs in the media and concern other players.

This isnt even Greek football, but I have no doubt the exact same thing would occur!

[Manolara_AEKara]

There are more things football hooligan related that aren't in the papers.. probably worse things.

[Thryleon]

^^

Agreed. We cannot possibly expect the league to act proffesionally, when the clubs cannot do it for themselves. The finger pointing at the league needs to dissapear and the mirror needs to be placed firmly on the clubs themselves. We only move forward by acting proffesionally.

[Thryleon]

I hate to nitpick certain points out of long posts, so accept my apology in advance.

But I cannot agree the standard is much better than 15 years ago. No way. It's been in terminal decline since the early 2000s - on the field and off.

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree, but IMHO, I would rather play the Panionios of 1996 than Panionios of 2012, and the same goes for OFI and Aris!

This post has been edited by Thryleon: Apr 2 2012, 12:49 AM

[Manolara_AEKara]

Zacly. The shiz that happens behind the scenes that we don't hear about is a societal problem, whereas the stuff that happens in and around the football aspect can be eradicated by the presidents, acting for their clubs, together with the broader help of the superleague. For 'some reason', 'some people' don't give a fuck about cleaning up Greek football or they benefit from it being the way it is.
Why would a governing body and group of teams (who are supposed to be losing out with fan bans, and fines) be so inept/stupid/nonchalant about this issue that has been going on for decades?
Is there any independant or even popular team biased newspaper that has ever adressed these issues or made noise? Has it ever had any support?
Even talk about 'helping' Aek+Pao is covered in biased bullplop propaganda that olympiakos/marinakis is helping the other two.

As long as the media have succeeded in converting a large % of the football fan base into mindless drones who support the club $$$ but don't even know any players on the team, they can set each fan base against each other to further rile up sales of team merchandise and newspapers.
Forget about football, competitiveness, sportsmanship, only the fans that LIKE sports would follow the teams whereas if you appeal to ego, a sense of belonging and winning may Pao, Oly, Paok and Aris burn in the isolated hell that is D Division and Aek win all the titles. Fuck all you Pao, Oly, Paok and Aris fans, I'ma buy a shirt with Lybe and only go to the derbies so I can rub it in the other fans faces how we own them. Then I'll be a celebrity and in the news all over the world.
Super star, where the stage is the stands rather than the pitch and the opponents are police and the other teams players. Football isn't on the stage, violence is. Fueled by papers and the ones in charge, spawning this new ageish douchebag fan that has no understanding of football basics or team history except when stats b/w rival clubs are required to show who is bawse. Distracting us from 'quality' football we're supposed to be watching. So much so that 1+1=/=2 in the GSL.

And yes I was both the hatred inspired fan and the stat spewing asshole. Prolly still am.

[Amorgos]

Why would a governing body and group of teams (who are supposed to be losing out with fan bans, and fines) be so inept/stupid/nonchalant about this issue that has been going on for decades?
Is there any independant or even popular team biased newspaper that has ever adressed these issues or made noise? Has it ever had any support?

This I was wondering when I was 19/20 years old! I would see what was going on in the Greek League and just think, how are these ridiculous things going on and no one is making a sound about it! I would think, surely with time they will realise what they are doing TO THEMSELVES and get things right and civil.

Never happened, fans can still run out on a pitch and attack the opposition team and officials as they like...

I would think, man, imagine this happening here (Sydney) and the public outrage that would come of it! In Greece its just "how it is" and sports programme say what a shame it is that they are so far back compared to all other countries, it makes the news for abit and then its over. A few weeks later, some times months something new hits the headlines that’s just as stupid and your then in the Greek cycle of what Donis correctly said - boutherlo.

Nothing will change until Greece and its people have a real wake up call and society is held accountable on all levels and corruption is at least cut in half. Do you see this ever happening is what every individual has to ask themselves. at 21 I used to think - well common sence says yes! Eleven years later... I say - yeah, when hell freezers over

[Thryleon]

This is the worst part. Deep down, I know, that the sport would benefit right away if people just accept the result for what it is. Not sit there and debate the last minute penalty (like we can control that) and expect others to turn around and say no we were undeserving, just cop the result and fucking move on.

Nope, can't be done. Everything is tainted except when the angelic shining light wins, and dethrones the dark lord once again...

Even this season, a bankrupt PAO with not even half a team, almost eeked out a championship and went from +7 to -4 in the space of 6 weeks on the back of a bad run, and an unbelievable run of form which saw Olympiakos go without conceding a goal for a long whack of time (rightly or wrongly).

Nope, cannot be accepted thought process of the average fan:

"It must be a fixed league, it must, it cannot simply be that they could afford to pay their players.... Why could they and we couldnt? Because last season we didnt win the league because of a goal that got disallowed, and this consequently cost us 20 million euros from Champions League money and we had to sell half our lineup, and, and, and. ITS ALL THEIR FAULT! The bastards, Vroma, they are disgusting!"

"It doesnt matter, that we lost the title by failing to beat Hraklis, insert name, cheated its the only answer, and when we get the questionable call (there is always one or more for every team) we deserved it anyway, because they missed one before it. Insert name still cheated."

The above thought processes, may just be the underlining cause behind 80% of Greek footballs problems. The other peripheral problems like sacking coaches, or hiring players that were ill afforded, or the points dropped against team X were never a problem were they....

I like to think that I can stand up and say what I have been saying for the last ten to fifteen years with pride. I know that in 80% of the championships my team has won over the past 15 years, there has been a questionable call for my team. For every one for my team there has probably been one that goes against, and in any season any one of my competitors could have grabbed the league off me. I remember listening to the radio and watching the final matchday at the same time back in 2002 (around then anyway) where we were a point behind PAO. All they needed to do was win their game, and the league was theirs. They travel to Hraklis and lose 1-0 and we manage a win and win the league. They were the better team all season, but kept failing to get the job done against the shit opposition of the Greek league, and there was some questionable goal that no one fucking remembers now that taints that title according to my competition, because THAT is why they lost that season.

This thought process actually gained legs. The conspiracy grew, and there was an uproar about our titles, and one of the reasons was to do with how superior PAO had performed in europe that year. At NO POINT, did anyone point to that last match, and those dropped points and spew that they choked, and it all became about us cheating again. Some offside, or penalty or something. Its garbage. When we lost in 03-04, we had gone through the 7-0, 3 changes of coach and Antzas wife issue. In PAO's last season of victory, we played the whole year, without a left winger, and with half a right winger, and relying on a bunch of kids in the lineup trying to win a title. It didnt happen. We were slow, old, talentless, and failed to get the results that counted (Aris did the double against us that season I think). I know where we went wrong.

When push comes to shove, it hurts when our competitor was just better than us, and we all hate to admit it, especially in the jungle of Greek football, but we as a nation cannot admit it. Right now we are up. it wont last forever, we will eventually be the ones who everyone is laughing at, and then it will be 15 years of boxa vroma finally toppled, and the circus will be someone elses, but it will still be a circus full of sad clowns...

[Manolara_AEKara]

ΕΡΝΕΣΤΟ ΒΑΛΒΕΡΔΕ Πρέπει να πετύχουμε μια ακόμα νίκη για να είμαστε και ηθικά πρωταθλητές, γιατί είναι άδικο για τους παίχτες του Παναθηναϊκού, οι οποίοι χάνουν ένα ματς στα χαρτιά

Posted by our friend Atillo.

[Thryleon]

^^
I know what this is in reference to, and continuing that theme I have an honest to god question:

Im interested in your stance on that ruling. I already know what the answer is likely to be, but wanting fair adjudication of rules, and regulations, what is your stance?

Take the emotion out of it. When a club is in breach of rules mandated by the governing body of europe, what is the legal result that caused a major uproar?

FWIW I will forever hate that title, mainly due to what it represents to other fans but I prefer to see it as a reminder of how illogical the Greek football fan can be when it comes to wanting a fairly adjudicated league. The result is not complained about because a rule was enforced in what the governing body deemed to be fair, but due to it being in favour of the club with the wrong colours. I must reiterate, that I hate having a match decided in such fashion, but that was the ruling. I dont see it as season defining so to speak, as there were other results that occurred over 30 matches that decided that season but that is how it is remembered, and I would have preffered to not have that question mark of "what if?" over that title, but its there and I cannot do a thing about it but breathe a sigh of relief that it was won, and move on. The relief being that had the decision gone the other way, I know why we were not champions that season. What really irks me: It became the crux position of AEK's downfall, when really the playoffs were equally at fault as AEK lost second to PAO that season on that stupid play off system that we should never have implemented to begin with.

[RED SHERIFF]

the whole play off system in various guises seems to be flowing through numerous European leagues at the moment..

Holland,Austria,Belgium,Cyprus I am sure there are more...some of them even decide the champion?

[Thryleon]

^^

I don't see the point in implementing this system. It actually gives teams the incentive of doing the following:

Resting their players once the title is out of reach in order to be at full strength come the playoffs. What this does, is make the league LESS competitive for the title every season, as teams who know they are not going to win it, just give up in order to make sure they can then win the play offs. Any team that continues pushing for the league, flirts with danger come end of season. Thus far, more often than not the team that earned second place on the ladder has lost it, to someone with a deeper squad, fewer injuries, or fewer suspensions in the playoffs.

There is nothing FAIR about that. After all that is what we are trying to achieve is it not?

[RED SHERIFF]

I suppose it can keep the interest going for teams 4-9th depending on how many points etc..

also in these tough times economically..it can be a good money earner..ARIS and PAOK fans embrace it..they have an extra 50-70k over the 3 home games..that can equate to an extra 1-2 million in revenue.....not bad...

[Ziaka]

PAOK fans embrace it..

You are mistaken. PAOK fans hate the playoffs with a passion. It's considered the dumbest thing that Superleague came up with. And not only the PAOK fans, so does the PAOK coaching staff. From Santos to the current coach Boloni.

[Thryleon]

I suppose it can keep the interest going for teams 4-9th depending on how many points etc..

also in these tough times economically..it can be a good money earner..ARIS and PAOK fans embrace it..they have an extra 50-70k over the 3 home games..that can equate to an extra 1-2 million in revenue.....not bad...

That interest would be there for teams 4th - 9th regardless. UEFA spots are generally the same and consistent every year, and 5th spot on the ladder has been in dispute all the way down the line, and I dont see what the point of trying to make 5th spot more interesting to win does, when 2nd-4th all of a sudden becomes a matter of going through the motions. Its counter productive. The competition at the top is kept honest with european competition and the title, and the competition at the bottom is kept honest by relegation. The middle part of the ladder is where it all falls over, and that will happen regardless of the playoffs.

[RED SHERIFF]

You are mistaken. PAOK fans hate the playoffs with a passion. It's considered the dumbest thing that Superleague came up with. And not only the PAOK fans, so does the PAOK coaching staff. From Santos to the current coach Boloni.

they still show up....in decent numbers..that's what i meant by embrace it...and thus put money in the club coffers...that cant be a bad thing in these times?

[iltibas]

The play-offs are not such a bad idea. Because,

1) To win the Greek championship you need a strong attack. The differences in strength are so extreme that typically 2 or 3 teams compete for the championship (look at this year's points total) and at least 10 teams play ferocious defense when playing the top clubs.

2) Therefore, the Greek rankings are not a good indicator as to which team will fare well in the European competitions and we saw it repeatedly, say, when Giovanni and company could score almost at will in Greece but were reduced to impotence in
Europe

The play-off system is certainly far from being perfect but it is better from the previous one.

[Greekaus]

You are right. No final position can indicate anything in regards to how a SL team will perform in Europe. Greek teams have tanked pretty much every single Season bar a few exceptions in any European Competitions for 50 years now. Basically we are crap. Now that the European football is so watered down with additional Nations participating and this goofy set-up of the Europa Cup , just leads us to believe that our teams are doing better, when clearly they are not.

Playoff system is stupid, no interest from fans when you look at the attendances and after last years stymena shit all over the place , the notion that teams are " playing it fair is a joke.

League is run by goons.

@ Thryleon, you are trying real hard to make a case for OLY's superiority. I cant imagine any person with his head screwed up right thinks that player for player , OLY did not have the best squads for the majority of the years since Kokkalis gained power. That isn't the issue at all here. So what, if let's say the Paranga or whatever may have influenced 1 or 2 championships out of all the many you have won. This changes what for AEK and PAO the last few years where they are struggling from within ?

League in general is in a shit state, nobody believes in it and the wrong people are running the majority of the teams. No playoff system can help anyone bar maybe someone like Atromitos that can make some extra money from it and even if they do , the idea that they will invest that money wisely to add quality into their team to do well in Europe next Season, is not even a thought for them.