Greek Superleague Issues & Concerns, The State of the Greek Superleague Options

[RED SHERIFF]

could the hooligan issue be worse?


others are arguing the hooligan issue is bad because PAO and AEK dont have sugar daddies?

[Thryleon]

The final position of the league is what the players earned over 30 matches. It's not meant to determine who is more worthy to compete in europe. That is a next season proposition and the landscape of any team will change based on what happens in the off season, so what is right now may not be the same in 4 months time further deligitimising any proposed playoffs.

This sounds good but is it necessarily true?

E.g., early in this year's championship, a player of Levadiakos informed us (after a match against OSFP) that Levadiakos was managing its resources and for this purpose had fielded a weaker team. Let us engage in a hypothetical:

If OSFP were to end 1 point ahead of PAO would the final position be what the players earned and not, conceivably, what was mostly earned and in part handed to them by another club's strategy?

The second part on the statement states that the relative strength of the clubs at the end of a season will not be the same at the beginning of the next. True of course but would even older data, as a rule, correlate better with performance in Europe?


We have at our disposal imperfect tools and we can easily demonstrate the weaknesses of any one of them. The question is simply which one is better and why. A larger question would be what we wish to achieve and which tool is the better predictor for that.

You can only play whom lines up against you, and different teams are going to manage their lineups differently. IMHO, if people are going into a game with the mentality of it matters not we wont win anyway, then the lineup they field is irrelevant due to a loser mentality at the club. This is not a supposed issue with Greek football, this would happen in any league. Likewise, do we pot the strong teams for resting stars when there is nothing to play for in an effort for them to concentrate on more important matches? No, they are managing their list in precisely the same way. What happens when they lose? Gamble lost. We cant sit here and mandate these things, your squad represents the club, be it best 11 worst 11. You can pick and choose who plays when, based upon many different factors.

At the end of the season, each team plays 30 matches. Whoever gets the most results in their favour wins the league. Nothing more nothing less.

At the same time Greekaus, we fall into over guessing the scenario too... Has anyone seen the Olympiakos-Kerkyra match? When I logged onto social media that morning in Oz all I read about what how Olympiakos GAVE Kerkyra the 3 points... when I watched the extended highlights its was like 10 classic chances to 1 in favour of Olympiakos... Kekryra had 1 chance and scored... My point is, we tend to excaudate anything that happens in Greece too.

The Aris incident was just sad all together... to throw a bottle at a linesman/woman and injure them is just filth.

Finally some logical thought process. This is not the first match we have dropped points in and played well enough to win, and it will not be our last either, and the same thing has happened in other years. Ofi got a 2-2 result against us after trailing the whole match, and not creating a chance until they scored their first goal, and then equalised within 5 minutes. That is football. Asteras Tripolis did the same thing to us in the first half only two weeks ago, but that didnt matter because we finished 7 of our chances that game. Imagine we had failed to hit the scoreboard after that?

You would think with some of these arguments that football is foreign invention never seen before and that what applies in Greece does not apply anywhere else. Liverpool have a history of doing this and it costing them titles year after year by failing to beat teams like Stoke City. Are they really throwing matches, or is it that they are just failing to win?

This post has been edited by Thryleon: Apr 9 2012, 07:50 PM

[iltibas]

1) According to NEA Orbaiz is returning to Bilbao. Obviously, Marinakis almost had a heart attack when Orbaiz's shot hit the post, contrary to Vaggelis' express instructions, wishes, and promises to third parties. As a result Orbaiz will be banished and sent to Bilbao.

2) Having had more exposure to GreekSoccer than all the Orbaiz's in the world. I put my money where Manolara's rhetoric is and won gazillions of Euros. I immediately sent telegrams to Domazos and Papaioannou with identical content:

I will buy your favorite team and save it for bankruptcy if you publicly admit that Bebis was the best creative Greek midfielder ever!

I would like you all to know that:

1) If AEK and/or PAO continue to have problems it is because these ex-players put their pride ahead of their teams' salvation and

2) If the prophets of gloom and doom are unable to extend to their favorite teams similar, but condition free, life savers, either they love their teams in words only or they suffer from a faith deficit in their own (and, paradoxically, often ex post-facto) prognostications.

[Greekaus]

@ Thryleon, seriously man youre a bit off on your post and I think you know it.

Did I say that OLY threw the game vs Kerkyra ? I said that all Greek teams when they don't have something specific to play for have a tendency to take the day off in terms of effort required. The fact that Kerkyra is a friendly somateio to Olympiakos will escalate the already suspicious nature of a Greek soccer fan.

Maybe if you read the game thread at your own red forums, you will see that many OLY posters also thought that OLY did not put in the effort of a champion team, unless ofcourse you also think that they lack any football knowledge.

This guy thinks OLY didn't play hard enough also, but what would he know ? If only he would of read these threads where the truth is always spoken

http://www.sportaction.gr/Podosfairo/Super...yti-poy-deixame


Comparing the honesty of the EPL to anything the Greek league has offered the past 40 years is sacreligious.

God damn it , Ive gone many times here in this stupid thread saying that NO team , even my broke ass PAO one ,has a moral advantage over anyone else. Same shit everywhere just the colour of the fanelles are different.

[Thryleon]

^^


See thats just it mate, I think you have misunderstood exactly what I meant. Many of the Olympiakos fans who were unhappy with the result with Kerkyra are actually confused about what they were/are upset about, and I have had this argument far too often. i.e. Performance + result = the same thing to these fans. To be honest, I thought we played well, and well enough to win. Sure it was not our best performance, but in all honesty the same people who are agreeing with you, are the same ones who you guys dislike the most. You are now using their arguments to prove the same point you were trying to make before.

In any case, I actually am not upset about it aside from the fact that we did not win. You always want your team to win, but look at this report:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/socc...0340/index.html

Does that not show eactly what I am talking about? You may not have mentioned about Olympiakos throwing the game, but it is implied by the vast majority of opposition fans and they will see it exactly as that. I also drew a comparison to Liverpool. I as a fan of the Liverpool football club, know exactly what I am talking about here, as I believe that Liverpool suffers from PAO and AEK syndrome, in that it can consistently beat top class opposition, and then brain fade and get dominated by Stoke City, Wolves, Portsmouth and all the cellar dwellar sides of the comp.

Given, you were the first one to mention the Premier League, I am vindicated for mentioning it here, and frankly I dont even know why you took my previous post so personally unless you are talking about the following bolded line:

What I was trying to suggest is that Greek teams bar no exception have attitude issues whenever there is nothing much to play for and NO , its not the same in the English leagues. If OLY gave 100 % effort and lost to Kerkyra at home then you can compare that to perhaps say , Manchester United lost home to Blackburn , which has happened in the past. Difference there is that United players/teams always play to win regardless of circumstances. Greek teams/ players/coaches/officials and even fans , do not have that professional " work ethic " or respect for what they do.
Fans feel cheated many times and they do not need any additional motivations to act like social defects and cause havoc.

After last years allround match fixing scandals and how everything got swept under the carpet, some here still think that its just a figment of the NON-OLY fans/ poster's imagination.

Self destruction from within ( all the teams who have screwy owners )poor product on the field and dishonour all over the place is what defines the SL now. Can't be and won't be fixed unless all the Protagonists , fuck off.

Given the report I have linked here, am I actually off in believing what I have stated?

This post has been edited by Thryleon: Apr 9 2012, 10:31 PM

[Aphrodite's ...]

When Pateras was around, it was a matter of him trying to out corrupt Kokkalis (then Marinakis, who won in the second year).

Let us be clear here, ALL things that happen in Greek Football have an element of corruption to them. Even B Division matches. The mafia bosses who own the clubs try to out corrupt each other, and whoever has the most power usually wins (Oly).

The people in the Greek FA can't be bothered because the mafia bosses who own clubs don't want them to, and if they did try and fix it, it would mean...dear god...dare I say it...getting off their lazy asses and earning their paycheck.

[RED SHERIFF]

you havent really added anything to the debate...just reiterated 6 months of the same...

if you added ....the Germans want our assets, The US/Zionist plotted Cyprus...you would have covered Volume 1 of 'Great Greek kafeneio yarns" 1974-2012

[gavros7]

just b/c pao sold the game in order for Giannakopoulos jr. to collect his bet, DOESNT mean that ALL teams are the same..pao is heading straight to prwtodikeio where he belongs..it's that simple..whether green fans like to believe it or not..the decades long corruption and lies have finally caught up to them, just like it caught up to Greece!!

good luck..leave the SL and all the rest teams alone that are trying to keep greek soccer alive!!

[londrezos]

Well said.

[iltibas]

Nah!

As Psomiadis has already demonstrated, only the insufficiently corrupt run out of money.

There is though a whiff of divine punishment in what is happening to PAO.

They used to have an owner who was outspent by Kokkalis and was rather inept in his choice of nanagers but, nevertheless, fielded a good team that was financially sound.

He was vilified day and night on the assumption that there was an endless supply of rich gentlemen burning with an incontinent desire to spend money so that PAO would become, once again, the dominant Greek team. As it turned out, they (like all of us) were way too optimistic when it came to their favorite team and the new guys bought them moments of happiness by spending money they did not have.

And now that the debts need be paid, the "I demand that you spend your money so that my team wins" supporters are reaping what they sowed.

My best guess is that PAO will survive but, unless miraculously a new Vardinoyiannis-type of owner emerges, it will remain a walking wounded for years to come.

It will be bad for PAO and for the rest of us.

[cocksta]

just b/c pao sold the game in order for Giannakopoulos jr. to collect his bet, DOESNT mean that ALL teams are the same..pao is heading straight to prwtodikeio where he belongs..it's that simple..whether green fans like to believe it or not..the decades long corruption and lies have finally caught up to them, just like it caught up to Greece!!

good luck..leave the SL and all the rest teams alone that are trying to keep greek soccer alive!!

HAHHAHA wow the gavro has spoken popo think he might mistaken his team with ours?

[Manolara_AEKara]

Vgenopoulo asked for and was granted his initial investment of 1.1mil euros back from the club...? What the f......

So a bunch of people come into Pao, proclaim their love of Pao, win the league for Pao and theeeeeeen run away laughing when the shit hits the fan. Shit they did.
A clown car of people follow Demi, make deals in his shadow, blow holes in the hull, when things go wrong blame him, jump ship, and leave the ship shinking.

The Aek ship had many small holes whereas the Pao ship has a massive gash, both to sink at roughly the same time. Paok and Aris are in the saaame boat.. roughly.

Food for thought

[g00nis]

Nah!

As Psomiadis has already demonstrated, only the insufficiently corrupt run out of money.

There is though a whiff of divine punishment in what is happening to PAO.

They used to have an owner who was outspent by Kokkalis and was rather inept in his choice of nanagers but, nevertheless, fielded a good team that was financially sound.

He was vilified day and night on the assumption that there was an endless supply of rich gentlemen burning with an incontinent desire to spend money so that PAO would become, once again, the dominant Greek team. As it turned out, they (like all of us) were way too optimistic when it came to their favorite team and the new guys bought them moments of happiness by spending money they did not have.

And now that the debts need be paid, the "I demand that you spend your money so that my team wins" supporters are reaping what they sowed.

My best guess is that PAO will survive but, unless miraculously a new Vardinoyiannis-type of owner emerges, it will remain a walking wounded for years to come.

It will be bad for PAO and for the rest of us.

I'm not sure which Vardinogianni you are speaking of. Kapetanios or Tzigger. Both were criticized, but Tzigger is the only one that was really villified.

Either way it shows a lack of understanding of the situation PAO finds itself in.

Kapetanios was criticized because he dismantled the Borelli-Warzycha-Donis team that was so good and he took the profits and never reinvested in proper replacements. Fans however do remember what he did in his younger days to bring PAO to the forefront prior so he was never hated. I thought he loved the club though he was at times a bad owner.

His biggest mistake was leaving the club under the care of an incompetent relative with no interest in the team: his nephew Tzigger.

Tzigger spent like crazy (Konstantinou, Vlaovic, Paulo Sousa) but made terrible investments. He also completely abandoned the team after Rizoupoli and famously mistreated some of his former players. After Rizoupoli he stopped spending on new players relying on loan deals, little known foreigners, or free signings. He used the new stadium as the reasoning for the tightened purse strings but the attempted stadium itself was yet another massive failing in his disastrous run as president of the club.

In the end all the money from the Champions League group stages and the deep UEFA runs was never reinvested into the club by Tzigger and now he is acting out of pure spite. Leading the club into disintegration out of bitterness over the fact that he was never loved (and is now hated) by the fans.


People who claim that the Vardinogiannis family is being mistreated by PAO simply don't get it. Tzigger has been incompetent since the beginning, negligent since 2003, and purely destructive since 2008. Kapetanios was a capable owner who cared about the club but he has been gone for over a decade, and to be honest he has sit around and let his trust-fund nephew run his once favored club into the ground.



-----

Now speaking in a general sense for the state of the league in general it is not good. Competition breeds success and Olympiakos will have none next year.

2. PAO -- if we remain in the league it will be with a mid-table roster
3. Atromitos -- will lose their two best players (who belong to Olympiakos) and return to mid-table mediocrity
4. PAOK -- sold their best attacker and defender in January and lacks the funds to improve
5. AEK -- same boat as PAO
The rest -- will never challenge for the title

How long do you think it takes for Marinakis to realize he can get the CL Group money without having to pay big wages to good players and quality coaching? What will happen to Olympiakos in Europe when Mirallas, Torosidis, Djebbour, etc. get sold because they are simply not needed to win the league anymore?

The Greek league is entering a dark age. With the economy in the tank for years to come and the lack of good and reputable investors for the teams teetering on the brink of bankruptcy the overall quality will plummet. Worse players, worse coaches, worse stadiums and training facilities, worse youth academies.

Olympiakos fans who look and point while laughing gleefully at the misfortune of their rivals don't realize that the clubs live off each other. They don't realize that though they may be financially solvent that in the end the quality will disappear from their team as well.

[iltibas]

Since I do not know or understand everything and I do not harbor such ambitions, I try every time to stay on top of what appears to be important.

As far as PAO is concerned, I do not think it is important to discuss at this point how many mistakes and/or crimes the nephew committed. We would be lost for ever in a forest of details.

The essential, given the present situation, is the finances of the PAE. I relied for my information mainly on Thanassis Yannakopoulos who seems to make sense and does not appear to participate in pissing matches. Here is what he reportedly said in 2010 (here):

Αναλυτικά όσα δήλωσε ο Θανάσης Γιαννακόπουλος στην εκπομπή των οπαδών του «τριφυλλιού» στο High Channel:

-Ο κ. Πατέρας είπε ότι τα 90εκ. είναι ταμειακό έλλειμμα από το 1979-2008

«Εδώ γίνεται μια παρανόηση. Εγώ δεν λέω ότι είναι ηθελημένη. Είναι αλήθεια ότι την ώρα που ανέλαβε ο Νίκος Πατέρας το άνοιγμα ήταν 80 τόσα εκατομμύρια από την οικογένεια Βαρδινογιάννη. Όταν μιλάω, δεν μιλάω για πρόσωπα, αλλά για καταστάσεις. Σε τρία χρόνια από σήμερα, ο Παναθηναϊκός θα χρωστά 162 εκατ. και θα έχει άνοιγμα 90εκατ. στο ταμείο του».

-Ο κ. Πατέρας είπε ότι το έλλειμμα είναι 5 εκατ. συν 10 εκατ. λόγω της παρακράτησης φόρου που από 20% έγινε 40%...

«Εγώ τα έξοδα του Παναθηναϊκού δεν τα ξεκαθαρίζω αν είναι εφορίες ή όχι. Εγώ λέω ότι θα υπάρχει έλλειμμα 162 εκατ. ευρώ στο τέλος του 2012. Είναι αλήθεια ή όχι. Είναι αλήθεια ότι μιλάμε για μεταγραφές 2-3 και 4 εκατ. Ναι ή όχι; Είναι αλήθεια ή όχι ότι η αποτίμηση σήμερα είναι 112εκατ. ευρώ, ενώ όταν επρόκειτο να γίνει το πολυμετοχικό σχήμα μας έλεγαν 200 εκατ. Και θέλετε να σας πω και κάτι άλλο, όπως το είπα και μέσα στο Δ.Σ. Ποιος κάνει τις μεταγραφές και ποιος πετάει τα εκατομμύρια σαν πετσετάκια;

So, here is the question:

1) What is Yannakopoulos talking about?
2) What, if anything, was done after the Yannakopoulos statements?
3) How did PAO's finances evolve through time?
4) At what time did the players start to wait for months to be paid?

Let me also admit that I am not an accountant. Do we know enough about PAO's finances so that we may be told who, when, and how managed to to destroy PAO financially?

As of today, I would consider the rest of peripheral interest.

[g00nis]

It is important to talk about the history of the Vardinogiannides when you begin to question where the animosity comes from and whether it is deserved or not. My reply was a direct response to your implication that somehow the Vardinogiannides have been victims of bad press and overreaction from the fans and that what is currently happening to the club as divine retribution. To call these claims ridiculous is an understatement to say the least.

Anyways if you want to talk about what really matters then its the state of football in Greece and the state of the league... which to be frank is currently circling in a toilet bowl.

[gavros7]

iltibas,

for me Giannakopoulos bros are the same as the rest of the ''panathinaikares''...mono logia but when their club truly needed their help...ko ko ko!! Giannakopoulos sums it up perfectly in the article by stating:

"Το έχω τονίσει 1.000.000 φορές. Πρώτα είμαι αντιολυμπιακός και μετά Παναθηναϊκός. "

who can forget Ten Cate's comment that PAO's problem was that they're too worried about what Olympiakos does instead of taking care of their own issues!!

if history teaches us anything is, that it repeats itself...it's not the first time that Pateras destroyed a club!!

[RED SHERIFF]

Vgenopoulo asked for and was granted his initial investment of 1.1mil euros back from the club...? What the f......

So a bunch of people come into Pao, proclaim their love of Pao, win the league for Pao and theeeeeeen run away laughing when the shit hits the fan. Shit they did.
A clown car of people follow Demi, make deals in his shadow, blow holes in the hull, when things go wrong blame him, jump ship, and leave the ship shinking.

The Aek ship had many small holes whereas the Pao ship has a massive gash, both to sink at roughly the same time. Paok and Aris are in the saaame boat.. roughly.

Food for thought

you are spot on about AEK and the Demi issues..

I think its hard to blame Vgeno for taking back his 1.1 mil...given he has no say or where the club is going..

until he knows where tzigger shares are gonna end up... or where the club is going..it would be pointless just to "throw away" 1.1 million..

[Amorgos]

Now speaking in a general sense for the state of the league in general it is not good. Competition breeds success and Olympiakos will have none next year.

2. PAO -- if we remain in the league it will be with a mid-table roster
3. Atromitos -- will lose their two best players (who belong to Olympiakos) and return to mid-table mediocrity
4. PAOK -- sold their best attacker and defender in January and lacks the funds to improve
5. AEK -- same boat as PAO
The rest -- will never challenge for the title

How long do you think it takes for Marinakis to realize he can get the CL Group money without having to pay big wages to good players and quality coaching? What will happen to Olympiakos in Europe when Mirallas, Torosidis, Djebbour, etc. get sold because they are simply not needed to win the league anymore?

The Greek league is entering a dark age. With the economy in the tank for years to come and the lack of good and reputable investors for the teams teetering on the brink of bankruptcy the overall quality will plummet. Worse players, worse coaches, worse stadiums and training facilities, worse youth academies.

Olympiakos fans who look and point while laughing gleefully at the misfortune of their rivals don't realize that the clubs live off each other. They don't realize that though they may be financially solvent that in the end the quality will disappear from their team as well.

Spot on. A real worry and who would have thought 10 years ago we would have been in different worlds more competitive then today and the next 10 years I thinks.

[iltibas]

To call these claims ridiculous is an understatement to say the least.

I would like to thank you for undertaking to educate me, even though you find my claims to be worse than ridiculous. I accept your judgment and since I must, to my chagrin, admit that I am not your intellectual equal, I wish you productive discussions in the future with those who are.

iltibas,

for me Giannakopoulos bros are the same as the rest of the ''panathinaikares''...mono logia but when their club truly needed their help...ko ko ko!! Giannakopoulos sums it up perfectly in the article by stating:

"Το έχω τονίσει 1.000.000 φορές. Πρώτα είμαι αντιολυμπιακός και μετά Παναθηναϊκός. "

As you point out this statement is within the page I referenced in my previous post (above) which, believe me, I have read, more than once, in its entirety. Nevertheless,

1) In matters than relate to PAO he is, as far as I can tell, less self-serving than Pateras, Vgenopoulos, and Vardinoyiannis.
2) When a man makes statements that further his interests or his image I would doubt his truthfulness. When he admits something that can hurt them, I tend to believe him.

Concerning PAO, the only statements that can be seen as credible are those which come from the inside and do not obviously serve some partisan agenda.

[g00nis]

I would like to thank you for undertaking to educate me, even though you find my claims to be worse than ridiculous. I accept your judgment and since I must, to my chagrin, admit that I am not your intellectual equal, I wish you productive discussions in the future with those who are.

Your original implication about Tzigger as a victim and PAO's current predicament as divine justice were baseless and in bad taste. When I tell you they are wrong and offer you facts with which to back up my statement you then tell me the discussion is unimportant. If you make a claim and then when challenged say its not important enough for you to reply to... well then "ridiculous" is more than a fair comment.

Whether you consider yourself my intellectual equal or not is of no importance to me... but if you are going to get butthurt over some innocuous forum comments that's your problem and no one else's.

Spot on. A real worry and who would have thought 10 years ago we would have been in different worlds more competitive then today and the next 10 years I thinks.

Night and day. Do the Olympiakos fans who claim the league is healthier than ever remember the likes of Zahovic, Georgatos, Karembeu, prime Giovanni, Karataidis, prime Djordjevic, and Georgatos?